Harry, I grew up in NYC in the 40's and 50's. The only non-leftwing stuff I ever heard was what was going on in my own head trying to figure out how everyone else in the world could be so wrong.
I still haven't figured it out, but at least now, thanks to Rush, Reagan and the internet, I know there are others like me out there.
PS: I was already grown up and had three kids when Ayers was trying to blow up stuff to make a better world for the great unwashed. I remember those days of our late unlamented cultural revolution well. That Ayers et al. aren't in jail is a travesty of justice, but I guess you can get away with murder when you have an uber-rich father with lots of well connected leftoid friends in the Windy City ... it even gets you and your lovely bride faculty appointments at the local propaganda factory with a nice recompense and retirement package, so you can mold young minds from the safety of your ivory tower rather than risk blowing yourself up making bombs.
McColl was a Marxist who wrote odes to Ho Chi Minh and Stalin, not some cuddly labourite.
But it is amusing that Harry and Orrin have become the same person, blaming everything they disagree with on some undefined shadowy group they refer to as the "right." There was a time, you know, when the American left was also virently anti-communist.
More like the leftoid media prevented everybody from learning the truth about McCarthy. Unfortunately I knew/know all too much about the labor movement.
Joe Stalin was a mighty man, a mighty man was he, He led the Soviet people on the road to victory. All through the revolution he fought at Lenin's side, And they made a combination till the day that Lenin died.
He said, "Come all you people, we will work with brain and hand." And then one day the Nazis came into the Soviet land, They plundered to the Volga, to Stalingrad, and then Joe Stalin said, Come on, me boys!" and he kicked them out again.
Joe Stalin was a southerner, in Georgia he was born Where the oranges grow thick and fast and fields of waving corn; And Joe he was a farmer, his fingers they were green And he has planted the biggest crop the world has ever seen.
One day he looked upon his map and frowned and shook his head, "There's too much brown and not enough green," these are the words he said; "We'll have to change the weather, boys," he said and then he smiled, "So let's begin by planting trees along three thousand miles."
Joe Stalin rolled his sleeves up and he said, "Come on, let's start! The Volga river and the Don they are too far apart. I think we'd better join them, so come and help me, pal, And we'll build a mighty waterway, the Volga-Don Canal."
One day he went into the North and there saw rivers three All emptying their waters into the Polar Sea; "Now that's not right," Joe Stalin said, "these rivers they are ours, We'll turn 'em 'round and make 'em work to give electric power."
There was a range of mountains that was standing in the way So Stalin put his hand out and he smoothed them all away; For Joe he was determined to make the land all green And that's the biggest project that the world has ever seen.
Joe Stalin was a mighty man and he made a mighty plan; He harnessed nature to the plough to work for the good of man; He's hammered out the future, the forgeman he has been And he's made the workers' state the best the world has ever seen.
... but before he could make everything green, Uncle Joe, killed more people than anyone else had ever done before or after and made the streets run red with blood and then things got even worse, so making everything green was put on hold because people were too busy standing on line to buy a morsel of food to dig canals or level mountains and then things got even worse until it all collapsed.
Of course, Uncle Joe was long dead by then, but his memory is being kept alive in the hallowed halls of academe, where students are taught all about his greatness and possibly even read drivel like this.
The US State Department, though it's a real question whether the people demanding to be protected would be regarded by the anthropologist from Mars as free. They did not appear to want to be free.
Likewise, in Canada today, it is not so clear as David perhaps thinks just who or what principle pf freedom is being upheld by border controls, as you can learn here
When did I ever say that stopping idiots from crossing a border promotes freedom? It doesn't, although it's not a significant reduction in freedom either.
Of course, to those people who think that the US is flirting with fascism, oppression is a fait accomplie in Canada. Remember, freedom of speech is an American concept, not a Canadian value.
Dulles's and Acheson's State Depts., running scared from McCarthy.
David, I've been hinting that signing up with the national security state includes things liberty-loving people might find distasteful. It does not appear that Canada's national security apparatus clicks on all 8 cylinders.
I spend a fair amount of time surfing leftwing sites up here, sometimes playing gadfly but mostly just marvelling at the mindset and watching their heads explode over Harper(also,in part because the rightist sites are mostly too nutty). I am constantly reminded what gargantuan egos they all have and how their self-images as heroic, outgunned freedom-fighters challenging powerful meanies underpins so much of what they think. Ayers is classic. You won't let poor little Billy Ayers into your country to make a speech? Well then, you are just the sort of person who would have burned Galileo!
At the G20 summit in Toronto last summer, there were huge protests in the streets, which led to riots and massive arrests. There is no doubt the police lost it and there are ongoing inquiries, lawsuits, etc. as a result. It's still a big item on leftist blogs, but one theme that tickles me is the whining about how little public support the protestors got and are still getting. Where was the outrage that they were held in cells for sixteen hours with only tepid water and stale cheese sandwiches?! That's how Dachau started, you know. The reason, apparently, is that our entire national character is changing as a result of Harper, who masterminded it all as part of his secret agenda to destroy freedom and democracy (If you think Bush Derangement Syndrome was bad...). Me, I think we're pretty much the same nice, fair, none-too-exciting folks we always were, but apparently I'm too thick to see the dark clouds of fascism overhead.
Anyway, what they can't seem to get their heads around is that, while they saw themselves as heirs to those who marched at Selma, the public viewed them as bunch of scruffy riff-raff who thought challenging the police would be a lark on a nice summer's day. Their unfocussed, far-flung issues were so gounded in visceral emotion they could barely articulate them, and when they could, they appeared to have very little to do with the G20 finance ministers. So they came across largely as a bunch of ignorant punks with attitude.
I really do wish I was a customs officer and Ayers tried that Galileo stuff on me. I'd love to say to him "Well, Sir, I see your point and I do understand how the principles involved are similar on the surface, but surely there is an important difference you may have missed. Galileo had an upside."
In one of his books, I forget which, Walt Kelly mentions the time when the American Legion took over a Wisconsin town, herded people into a gym or some sort of large public building, strutted around with rifles etc.
After it was over, they explained that they were just demonstrating for freedom-loving Americans what would happen if them durty commies took over.
Funny thing, though. At the time, the freedom-loving Americans walked quietly into the gym.
There is nothing more chilling than hearing how extremists herded ordinary, decent folks into a gym. Although, if they walked out the other side an hour later, one is perhaps left with unanswered questions. It certainly wouldn't seem to make for a promising Spielberg movie.
Not really -- they probably just figured these guys were playing around and it was easier to humor them. One notes a similarity in the treatment of airplane hijackers, where passengers tended to cooperation until the 11 Sep attacks, after which there have been no hijackings because the passengers no longer cooperate.
Offhand, I cannot recall any hijackings in the past decade of airplanes with mostly Americans/westerners aboard.
I do recall several instances of people on airplanes ganging up on people trying to blow up the airplane right then.
YMMV, but if some nitwit carrying a gun tried to interrupt my coming and goings, I might cooperate until I got the chance to disarm him, but I'm damned if I'd still be quiet about it after it was over, the way the Wisconsinians were.
Dr. Johnson's profound remark about the loudest bleats about liberty coming from 'drivers of Negroes' is apposite here.
What I find interesting is that, as far as I know, every policy that Mr. Eagar supports consists of greater control of the citizenry by the government. Who is to protect us from them? Or is it that you can't be a fascist if you're working for the government?
I do. I even object to paramilitary organizations attacking the Wobblies, which is a much different thing. But I also object to the Wobblies shooting down veterans in the street while they marched in an Armistice Day parade, which is what happened in Centralia.
The Wobblies had handguns and rifles, the Legion had neither. Four Legionaires and a deputy sherriff were killed by the Wobblies and eight were injured. No Wobblies were killed or injured in the massacre, which makes it highly unlikely that the Legion planned to attack or attacked first. Two of the Legion fatalities and the deputy sherriff were not killed in the massacre, but were killed chasing Wobblies. One Wobbly was lynched the next day, but there's no evidence of which I'm aware that the Legion (or even any Legionaires) was involved.
One of the Wobblies testified that they opened fire first. The Wobbly defense at trial was that the Wobblies were reacting to a third group, hired by the timber companies, who charged their hall. Why they then, with their opening shot, killed the leader of the Legion who was in the street and not attacking I'll leave to the class.
We were never threatened by Wobblies. We have been, and still are, threatened by what the social historian J.C. Furnas called 'shirtists.'
The Legion were shirtists, and while that period was comparatively short, their drive for 100% Americanism lasted much longer and did and is still doing more damage than the Wobblies ever portended.
33 comments:
Ayers' arrogance isn't to be believed.
Lucky you. The rightwing protected you from hearing Ewan McColl, or otherwise, no doubt, you'd have grown up just like Ayers.
Harry, I grew up in NYC in the 40's and 50's. The only non-leftwing stuff I ever heard was what was going on in my own head trying to figure out how everyone else in the world could be so wrong.
I still haven't figured it out, but at least now, thanks to Rush, Reagan and the internet, I know there are others like me out there.
PS: I was already grown up and had three kids when Ayers was trying to blow up stuff to make a better world for the great unwashed. I remember those days of our late unlamented cultural revolution well. That Ayers et al. aren't in jail is a travesty of justice, but I guess you can get away with murder when you have an uber-rich father with lots of well connected leftoid friends in the Windy City ... it even gets you and your lovely bride faculty appointments at the local propaganda factory with a nice recompense and retirement package, so you can mold young minds from the safety of your ivory tower rather than risk blowing yourself up making bombs.
I wasn't talking about Ayers. I was talking about how the McCarthyites prevented you from learning something about the labor movement.
McColl was a Marxist who wrote odes to Ho Chi Minh and Stalin, not some cuddly labourite.
But it is amusing that Harry and Orrin have become the same person, blaming everything they disagree with on some undefined shadowy group they refer to as the "right." There was a time, you know, when the American left was also virently anti-communist.
More like the leftoid media prevented everybody from learning the truth about McCarthy. Unfortunately I knew/know all too much about the labor movement.
A dangerous subversive, singing those songs about coal miners.
But Big Brother was looking out for you. I suppose you are thankful.
THE BALLAD OF STALIN
(Ewan MacColl)
Joe Stalin was a mighty man, a mighty man was he,
He led the Soviet people on the road to victory.
All through the revolution he fought at Lenin's side,
And they made a combination till the day that Lenin died.
He said, "Come all you people, we will work with brain and hand."
And then one day the Nazis came into the Soviet land,
They plundered to the Volga, to Stalingrad, and then
Joe Stalin said, Come on, me boys!" and he kicked them out again.
Joe Stalin was a southerner, in Georgia he was born
Where the oranges grow thick and fast and fields of waving corn;
And Joe he was a farmer, his fingers they were green
And he has planted the biggest crop the world has ever seen.
One day he looked upon his map and frowned and shook his head,
"There's too much brown and not enough green," these are the words he said;
"We'll have to change the weather, boys," he said and then he smiled,
"So let's begin by planting trees along three thousand miles."
Joe Stalin rolled his sleeves up and he said, "Come on, let's start!
The Volga river and the Don they are too far apart.
I think we'd better join them, so come and help me, pal,
And we'll build a mighty waterway, the Volga-Don Canal."
One day he went into the North and there saw rivers three
All emptying their waters into the Polar Sea;
"Now that's not right," Joe Stalin said, "these rivers they are ours,
We'll turn 'em 'round and make 'em work to give electric power."
There was a range of mountains that was standing in the way
So Stalin put his hand out and he smoothed them all away;
For Joe he was determined to make the land all green
And that's the biggest project that the world has ever seen.
Joe Stalin was a mighty man and he made a mighty plan;
He harnessed nature to the plough to work for the good of man;
He's hammered out the future, the forgeman he has been
And he's made the workers' state the best the world has ever seen.
... but before he could make everything green, Uncle Joe, killed more people than anyone else had ever done before or after and made the streets run red with blood and then things got even worse, so making everything green was put on hold because people were too busy standing on line to buy a morsel of food to dig canals or level mountains and then things got even worse until it all collapsed.
Of course, Uncle Joe was long dead by then, but his memory is being kept alive in the hallowed halls of academe, where students are taught all about his greatness and possibly even read drivel like this.
Yep, just as bad as planting bombs.
A free people must be protected from contact with people like Ewan McColl.
Harry, are you having a problem with reading comprehension? Who or what suggested protecting free people from anything or anyone?
The US State Department, though it's a real question whether the people demanding to be protected would be regarded by the anthropologist from Mars as free. They did not appear to want to be free.
Likewise, in Canada today, it is not so clear as David perhaps thinks just who or what principle pf freedom is being upheld by border controls, as you can learn here
When did I ever say that stopping idiots from crossing a border promotes freedom? It doesn't, although it's not a significant reduction in freedom either.
Of course, to those people who think that the US is flirting with fascism, oppression is a fait accomplie in Canada. Remember, freedom of speech is an American concept, not a Canadian value.
Harry, surely not Hillary's state department forsooth?
Dulles's and Acheson's State Depts., running scared from McCarthy.
David, I've been hinting that signing up with the national security state includes things liberty-loving people might find distasteful. It does not appear that Canada's national security apparatus clicks on all 8 cylinders.
I spend a fair amount of time surfing leftwing sites up here, sometimes playing gadfly but mostly just marvelling at the mindset and watching their heads explode over Harper(also,in part because the rightist sites are mostly too nutty). I am constantly reminded what gargantuan egos they all have and how their self-images as heroic, outgunned freedom-fighters challenging powerful meanies underpins so much of what they think. Ayers is classic. You won't let poor little Billy Ayers into your country to make a speech? Well then, you are just the sort of person who would have burned Galileo!
At the G20 summit in Toronto last summer, there were huge protests in the streets, which led to riots and massive arrests. There is no doubt the police lost it and there are ongoing inquiries, lawsuits, etc. as a result. It's still a big item on leftist blogs, but one theme that tickles me is the whining about how little public support the protestors got and are still getting. Where was the outrage that they were held in cells for sixteen hours with only tepid water and stale cheese sandwiches?! That's how Dachau started, you know. The reason, apparently, is that our entire national character is changing as a result of Harper, who masterminded it all as part of his secret agenda to destroy freedom and democracy (If you think Bush Derangement Syndrome was bad...). Me, I think we're pretty much the same nice, fair, none-too-exciting folks we always were, but apparently I'm too thick to see the dark clouds of fascism overhead.
Anyway, what they can't seem to get their heads around is that, while they saw themselves as heirs to those who marched at Selma, the public viewed them as bunch of scruffy riff-raff who thought challenging the police would be a lark on a nice summer's day. Their unfocussed, far-flung issues were so gounded in visceral emotion they could barely articulate them, and when they could, they appeared to have very little to do with the G20 finance ministers. So they came across largely as a bunch of ignorant punks with attitude.
I really do wish I was a customs officer and Ayers tried that Galileo stuff on me. I'd love to say to him "Well, Sir, I see your point and I do understand how the principles involved are similar on the surface, but surely there is an important difference you may have missed. Galileo had an upside."
Lol. This might be the second time I've wished you were a border guard.
Don't worry, though, Peter. Our anti-fascist shield will deflect the fascism descending on Canada back onto Europe where it belongs.
We don't need to import fascism.
In one of his books, I forget which, Walt Kelly mentions the time when the American Legion took over a Wisconsin town, herded people into a gym or some sort of large public building, strutted around with rifles etc.
After it was over, they explained that they were just demonstrating for freedom-loving Americans what would happen if them durty commies took over.
Funny thing, though. At the time, the freedom-loving Americans walked quietly into the gym.
Harry, your anecdotes are getting more and more obscure.
There is nothing more chilling than hearing how extremists herded ordinary, decent folks into a gym. Although, if they walked out the other side an hour later, one is perhaps left with unanswered questions. It certainly wouldn't seem to make for a promising Spielberg movie.
The chilling part was that they went in without protest.
Not really -- they probably just figured these guys were playing around and it was easier to humor them. One notes a similarity in the treatment of airplane hijackers, where passengers tended to cooperation until the 11 Sep attacks, after which there have been no hijackings because the passengers no longer cooperate.
Offhand, I cannot recall any hijackings in the past decade of airplanes with mostly Americans/westerners aboard.
I do recall several instances of people on airplanes ganging up on people trying to blow up the airplane right then.
YMMV, but if some nitwit carrying a gun tried to interrupt my coming and goings, I might cooperate until I got the chance to disarm him, but I'm damned if I'd still be quiet about it after it was over, the way the Wisconsinians were.
Dr. Johnson's profound remark about the loudest bleats about liberty coming from 'drivers of Negroes' is apposite here.
A free people needs to be protected from the American Legion?
In Harry's world, sure.
You should read something about the history of the American Legion.Start with the Centralia Massacre.
It isn't a nice story.
And, yes, a free people needs to be protected from Legion fascists.
Um, Harry, it was the American Legion that got massacrered in Centralia.
What I find interesting is that, as far as I know, every policy that Mr. Eagar supports consists of greater control of the citizenry by the government. Who is to protect us from them? Or is it that you can't be a fascist if you're working for the government?
Well, I grew up in the South, where we were rescued by the feds from local fascists twice.
So I have a soft spot for the people who ran the Kluxers, who were trying to kill my grandfather, off.
David, you don't see a problem with a paramilitary organization making war on workers?
I do. I even object to paramilitary organizations attacking the Wobblies, which is a much different thing. But I also object to the Wobblies shooting down veterans in the street while they marched in an Armistice Day parade, which is what happened in Centralia.
The Wobblies had handguns and rifles, the Legion had neither. Four Legionaires and a deputy sherriff were killed by the Wobblies and eight were injured. No Wobblies were killed or injured in the massacre, which makes it highly unlikely that the Legion planned to attack or attacked first. Two of the Legion fatalities and the deputy sherriff were not killed in the massacre, but were killed chasing Wobblies. One Wobbly was lynched the next day, but there's no evidence of which I'm aware that the Legion (or even any Legionaires) was involved.
One of the Wobblies testified that they opened fire first. The Wobbly defense at trial was that the Wobblies were reacting to a third group, hired by the timber companies, who charged their hall. Why they then, with their opening shot, killed the leader of the Legion who was in the street and not attacking I'll leave to the class.
The Wobblies
If we survived them, there's hope we can survive their modern day avatars.
We were never threatened by Wobblies. We have been, and still are, threatened by what the social historian J.C. Furnas called 'shirtists.'
The Legion were shirtists, and while that period was comparatively short, their drive for 100% Americanism lasted much longer and did and is still doing more damage than the Wobblies ever portended.
Shirtist. A new one on me, proving once again, that you're never too old learn something new.
Your world may not have been threatened by the Wobblies, but us believers in 100% Americanism* sure have.
*Not sure what that is, but nevertheless, I'm 100% for it.
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